Getting Depth in a heavy flow

airart · Nov 15, 2009

Any ideas on a deep diving lure to use when the river is up.
I have resorted on using the heaviest flying condom I got and adding more lead to the line to try and keep it down as deep as possible, I know it interferes with the action of the lure but it is pointless fishing a plug if it is only going down 1 to 2 foot down even in the slackest part of the river.
I have tried giving out slack line and reeling in slow which helps keeping the lure down a bit, but in reality what is needed is a lure that weighs about 1 to 2oz to get right down there were the fish are. I have thought about pike plugs with an adjustable depth chin vane or some deep sea boat perks, or even a Pollock and mackerel spinning set up with a 1 or 2 oz drilled bullet with trace.
Any ideas guys ???

penhwyad 2 · Nov 15, 2009

There are plenty of deep diving plugs out there. It's nothing to do with the weight of the plug, but the shape/angle/size of the diving vane. I have lures weighing less than 10g that will dive to a depth of 10ft when retrieved in still water. That's another reason I posted the thread on Countdowns earlier.

sewinbasher · Nov 16, 2009

Very true about plugs finding their depth but a Wye lead fished above a Flying C works fine provided the lead is lighter than the lure.

PaulD · Nov 16, 2009

penhwyad 2 said:
There are plenty of deep diving plugs out there. It's nothing to do with the weight of the plug, but the shape/angle/size of the diving vane.

I'd agree, the Rapala Shad Rap is a good option. Cast up and across, wind it down quickly and it should be at fishing depth as it passes you on its journey downstream before it starts to arc across to your bank.

Don't be afraid of using large lures either. In really heavy water I've had sewin on 11 and 13 (yes 13)cm jointed Rapalas!

Ribblerod · Nov 16, 2009

Use a slim Toby type spoon cast slightly up and across and almost dead drift it using only the bow in the line to move it down and across, through the curve and into the dangle. Line type and diameter ie mono or braid size and weight of the lure should be varied depending on depth and flow, also the angle cast, as in flyfishing. It's easier to show than explain, hope you get what i mean here from the discription.
Spoons have taken lots of fish for centuries before modern plugs existed and are as effective today as they were way back then, all that has changed are fashions and to some degree the know how, OH YES THE FISH LOVE EM

outside · Nov 16, 2009

RR, I'm so glad to hear someone else uses toby spoons!!! People look down on me when they see what I'm using, but I like the action in the water, plus its quite easy, with the narrow profile to get them down, as you say, and easier to guage the depth that a mepps I think. BTW, do you modify yours RR? I put heatshrink round the hook link to hold it out straight

Ribblerod · Nov 16, 2009

Modify them? Yep i sharpen the hooks and de-barb them (you cannot improve perfection)

outside · Nov 16, 2009

The heatshrink is supposed to improve their hooking.

Airart. Look up stumps paternoster rigs. You'll see devons, mepps, rapalas and flying 'c's' designed to be fished this way on his threads. The only way to get really deep in fast water.

Ribblerod · Nov 16, 2009

Does it? Never found any problem personally, Falkus and Buller perpertuated the oposite myth to your theory with the double split ring did they not? i have even seen and used flying hooks from the swivel in the past, but desided i was trying for a cure to a non existant problem- OH THEY WERE A NIGHTMARE

sewinbasher · Nov 16, 2009

I use the technique of putting a swivel between the Toby and the hook to avoid the levering action on the hookhold and I also reduce the size of the treble at the same time.

All I can say is that I have not lost a fish on a Toby since starting to do this but that might just be complete coincidence. I have no trouble at all in casting them and regard them as my first choice lure in heavy water.

outside · Nov 16, 2009

No RR, falkus and buller suggested the heatshrink to hold the hook up, as they suggested lots of takes were never hooked. They were not saying that they were gaining leverage, and being lost. I suppose in heavy water, the hook will always be trailing properly anyway!

PaulD · Nov 16, 2009

I always found Tobys great fish attractors but poor hookers until I started to use an additional split ring between the hook and the spoon.

silverinvicta · Nov 16, 2009

I use Tobys and Tobies a lot in the salt....I lost fish after fish until i used single hooks...Only lose a fraction of what i did lose now. I also use mainly singles on Mepps type lures as well.. If it affects the action, i can't see it, and it dont bother the fish one iota ...

Si.............

Beanzy · Nov 16, 2009

Mepps size 4 or a 'longue' bladed aglia, but swap the hooks as I've been straightened twice on a Mepps and once on a Rapala.
Love the action of the Rapala countdown. I fish this and the Mepps up stream then let the bow in the line take them on their arc. Seem to get plenty deep enough even on our pots.

Ribblerod · Nov 17, 2009

outside said:
No RR, falkus and buller suggested the heatshrink to hold the hook up, as they suggested lots of takes were never hooked. They were not saying that they were gaining leverage, and being lost. I suppose in heavy water, the hook will always be trailing properly anyway!

I checked and stand corrected i must have read this elsewere, they also talk of a tulip? type bead and allowing the spoon body to slide freely. I think a ridgid hook link is more likely to come out personally. I have had an absoloute ton of fish on single hooked spoons, never had problems with fish comming off over and above anything else, contary i recon they are a ton better than plugs in this regards. I really think this is something in the mind of the angler from the time of this book and everytime one comes off (as happens) it re-proves this what i think is bad science

Si,
Tell us more about the single sucess, what are the fish? Hard mouth toothy stuff or just regualar Bass, pollack etc.? A big gape barbless single on a spoon might be the ultimate c/r tool as all the hookset is translated into just one point not divided by three! and turning the hook out in the water would be a doddle- just like when i go flyfishing for them Pike

Ribblerod · Nov 17, 2009

I have re-thought this "missed take thing" I do get a lot of Browns etc hit bigger spoons sideways and actually miss the hooks (which is a good thing) If i were after seatrout i fish a lot smaller in length- still varing the weight (small heavy spoons sink as good as larger ones often). Big fish Salmon, large s/t chub, Pike etc just engulf em though

outside · Nov 17, 2009

RR a tulip bead is what goes on a devon mount.

apprentice 2 · Nov 17, 2009

Ribblerod,

Tell us more about the single sucess, what are the fish? Hard mouth toothy stuff or just regualar Bass, pollack etc.? A big gape barbless single on a spoon might be the ultimate c/r tool as all the hookset is translated into just one point not divided by three! and turning the hook out in the water would be a doddle- just like when i go flyfishing for them Pike

I too use single hooks on my tobies, mepps etc and so far, 2/3 years I haven't noticed any reduction and feel they might actually be better hookers than a treble. Certainly C&R is a doddle and damage is much much less.

Brian M.

silverinvicta · Nov 17, 2009

Singles

Singles

[Si,
Tell us more about the single sucess, what are the fish? Hard mouth toothy stuff or just regualar Bass, pollack etc.? A big gape barbless single on a spoon might be the ultimate c/r tool as all the hookset is translated into just one point not divided by three! and turning the hook out in the water would be a doddle- just like when i go flyfishing for them Pike
]

I started using singles a few yrs ago, spinning for brownies, I lost so many while using Mepps it was silly. The fish i was after aint big, a 1.5lb would be a cracker.....I bust a point off a treble just before packing up one day.. did'nt bother changing Mepp, never lost another fish in the last hour ??
I started trying doubles, then singles.. Since then i have gone on to singles.
I have used em a lot for sea fish, again with far superior success (using Toby type lures) with fish up to 8-9lb..(Pollack, Coalies, and smaller fish like Grey Gurnard, etc)
But fishing on my old local canal,(Leeds to Liverpool) have had plenty of pike into the mid teens..(It's stuffed with pike) Also had Sewin over here using em on Mepps....I don't however, spin that much for the Sewin when in Wales.... I intend to change some Condoms to singles for Salmon/Sewin next season. I'm just not sure about the tails of the body obscuring the point of a single.. I will try a longer link to the hook so its point is below the end of the tails. I have a couple more idea's as well

I now have more faith in the single than any other hook for on a lure...It is so easy to release a fish from the single with the barb pinched down a bit....

Si......

Ribblerod · Nov 17, 2009

Si,
I doubt you will have problems with condom style lures as long as the gape is sufficient. Which singles are you fitting to tobys? Stingers ?or just common or garden type? I am thinking towards 12grm-18grm size

Getting Depth in a heavy flow

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