In reality YOU have made your issue public, you could just as easily spoken to Geoff or the forum administrator via private messages.
I'm certainly not interested in hearing any more about your spat with Geoff because it's non of my business and I don't really care.
I fully understand that you feel you have been wronged and I accept your right to defend yourself 👍
I don't have a dog in this fight and nor do many others who frequent this forum so please take into account that you are really just spoiling the experience for the uninvolved 👍

 

1) has this been proven to be false information?
2) did this need a third thread?

 

John,
The issue seems to depend on what was said between you and Geoff in various conversations, e.g. his reference to hooks being sourced from the Far East. As such, I don't see that you can reasonably expect other forum members to comment or get involved.
I see you have stated your own recollection of events on the original thread, so at least you defence to the allegations is on record.
Many years ago you kindly sent me a box of needle flies with treble hooks for sea trout. I seem to recall that the trebles were fairly small and lightweight, perfectly adequate for sea trout, but probably not for large salmon.
I also accept your right to defend your reputation, but perhaps you should correspond with Geoff directly, as members can't really add anything to the facts relating to your dispute.

 

Hi John, I never commented on any of the posts about your spat with Geoff, there is an obvious reason for that, I haven't a clue what actually happened regarding the hook that failed, hence the reason I stayed out of it.

Your post above however encouraged forum members to have an input, so here goes.

I totally understand why you feel the need to come on here and defend your reputation, it's only to be expected. However reading the posts on here between you and Geoff it looks like the situation has hit a stalemate, neither of you is gonna agree. From where I sit would the best option not be to have the offending thread deleted and also every other thread that's connected to it deleted? Maybe not what you were hoping for, but might be the best option in the current situation.

You could always contact admin, see if they could act as a go between.

 

My 1st interaction & from what I've read so far, is that there are 2 versions of an instance between 2 parties over some transaction some years ago. Not intending to "take" sides, who has the actual proof? As we are all aware, there are 2 sides to every story.

 

Hi guys I don’t know what to make of this situation but I have shopped with Grays Of Kilsyth for a long while now and have never been sold an inferior product also I have never known him to sell a treble with his needle tubes it’s always been fulling mill tube doubles
His needle flys were sold with a small light treble but those are very different from needle tubes and I don’t think he has sold them in quite a while
John is a very nice guy and so is Geoff and I wish both parties could just sort this whole mess out
Also reputation is everything and nobody wants to accused of selling shite just to make a extra ten bob
It’s a pity that it has come down to this as nobody wants to be washing their dirty linen in public I just hope it all gets resolved soon
Thanks billy

 

For the information of members:

Mr Littler has said that he did not win any of my products in an online charity auction. I will happily concede that I may have been mistaken in that regard. As I said in my first post on this subject, it was along time ago and I was uncertain of the detail. I have just checked on some old forum posts and I found that the auction I had in mind was for a box of Needle Flies, posted in November 2005 in the old Proboards Fly Fishing Forums. It was won by another forum member, not Mr Littler.

Mr Littler stated in his post above, “I did actually say on the original thread that I bought the needle tubes in kit form. I bought both the sea trout and salmon sizes. I think that the sea trout tube diameters were 1.5mm and the salmon were 1.8mm but please understand that this was many years ago.”

Mr Littler then goes on to say “The hook in question came with the salmon size needles and I will repeat what I received for the purpose of clarity. There were various lengths of needle tube, junction tube, some treble hooks and a clear plastic box. I still have the empty box.”

Might I suggest that, like my own memory of twenty years ago, Mr Littler’s memory of what he bought where and when is evidently unreliable. As he states above, “this was many years ago”.

However, some facts are indisputable:

• I have never sold “needle tubes in kit form”.
• I have never sold kits comprising “various lengths of needle tube, junction tube, some treble hooks and a clear plastic box.”
• I have never sold packets of treble hooks in my online shop. (See point number 7 below)
• I have never sold treble hooks with, or for use with, needle tubes.
• I make and sell two diameters of needle tubes, i.e. 1.5mm and 1.8mm in a range of lengths. I supply them in packs of 10 per size, each pack with a length of junction tubing. Both diameters may be used for salmon and sea trout. I do not, and have never, supplied treble hooks with the needle tubes.
• I also sell boxes of needle tube flies, available with the option of Fulling Mill tube fly double hooks. They have never been available with treble hooks.
• My earlier needle flies and needle fly kits, as billy 67 says, were sold with small light treble hooks (VMC trebles in sizes 12 and 10). The needle flies were designed in 1999 with sea trout in mind. In the following decade, I caught dozens of sea trout on these needle flies, and a number of salmon, without a failure of the hooks. I have never sold these treble hooks separately or in packets.
• I have never sold or supplied treble hooks, or hooks of any other kind, bought in the “Far East”.
• I have never “confessed” to Mr Littler that I sold hooks bought in the Far East.
• I did receive several orders from Mr Littler for needle tubes, which I supplied along with a number of complimentary tubes.
• I do not, and have never, sold “inferior hooks”, or any other products, “All so that I could make an extra ten bob per packet on them”.

Mr Littler's allegations are indeed libellous.

As for apologies ……

 

It is clear that forum members have little interest in this matter. I realise, of course, that it is of little consequence to any of you. After all, the only person affected by it is me, and I am not a part of your community here. I suspect that I am regarded by many of you as an unwelcome outsider.

What is perhaps more concerning is that the rules of this forum can be openly broken with impunity …. and no one turns a hair. A forum member has, without provocation or reason, abused his privileged position as a forum member to make an offensive and malicious attack on the character of another person, by posting untruthful allegations.

Why he chose to do so is anyone’s guess. It is certainly a mystery to me. I had been under the impression, in my limited dealings with Mr Littler, that he was a satisfied customer. He had placed a few orders for needle tubes and I agreed to send him some additional complimentary needle tubes for him to give to his fishing friends and clients. I have only spoken to him once, when he telephoned me some years ago. As I recall, the call was about nothing specific and I certainly did not receive the impression that Mr Littler was unhappy about anything. I cannot recall any mention of a bent hook, a lost fish or a request for an apology. I believe we talked about how our sea trout fishing seasons had gone on our respective rivers. I remember being jealous of his season’s catch, which far outnumbered my own. We may have talked about the Lune and Eden, as I had a notion to further expand my fishing horizons. I had earlier had some experience of the Tyne and Wear, as a member of Felling Fly Fishers and Hexham Angling Association. I had also joined the Prince Albert Angling Society, and had a few nights on the Cumbrian Esk, Lune, Eden and Border Esk. I did subsequently join Yorkshire Fly Fishers, whose waters I fished, with some modest success, for two seasons. On another occasion, having visited his website, which was then in its early stages of development, I recall sending him an (unsolicited) email offering some advice and ideas on its potential development, based on my own, admittedly inexpert, experience of building websites. These are the only direct communications I have had with him. Mr Littler evidently has an entirely different recollection of events, an alternative reality. Having had no contact with him for some years, I came by chance upon the accusations he has made against me on this forum. I have to say that I was shocked. I still cannot comprehend any of it. But I could not let his allegations go unanswered. Hence my gate crashing of your forum. But I have bored you enough.

As I have gone to some lengths to explain in my earlier posts, his allegations are untruthful, libellous and defamatory, in that, if anyone is gullible enough to believe what Mr Littler has said about me, they are potentially damaging to my reputation. Leaving aside the legal implications, surely such conduct is unacceptable on what has been described as “a uniquely friendly forum”. In the early days of this and other fishing forums, a member behaving in this way would have been subject to censure, both by the forum administration and indeed by the general membership. Today, it would seem that anything goes. How times change!

Now, I fully expect that Mr Littler, true to form, will dispute every word of the above. I will leave you all to decide what is fact and what is fiction.

May I just finish by expressing my thanks to those members who took the time to post reasoned responses to my complaint.

 

Hi John

I've avoided posting until now as didn't want to get drawn into other people's business.

I find it unfair that you suggest people see you as an unwelcome outsider. This is a forum about sea trout fishing, and had you joined for this purpose and introduced yourself in the members area like all other new members do, I think you would feel differently. New members have always been welcome on this forum (have a read through the new members section and see for yourself). You still of course are very welcome to contribute to the forum and would be welcomed by most members. You've made your position on the dispute very clear, which is now "on record" and we all accept. How about moving on and contributing to some of the chats?

With regards to the above post, I feel you are expecting too much. It's a bit uncomfortable for other members as it is a personal dispute. I am genuinely intrigued as to what sort of reaction/action you were hoping for from other forum members? Quite a few members have reacted by speaking highly of your business and products. To put it on record, I too have purchased from you a couple of times and have been satisfied with the quality as well as service. Were you expecting us to do more than this? And if so, what?

I have had quite a few dealings with Geoff on here. He has always been more than happy to help with all sorts of stupid questions from leaders to sink tips to fly tying etc, and has gone over and above what you might expect from someone I don't know personally to help me. I'm certainly not going to call him out on this as I have no reason to disbelieve him - I think you both genuinely believe you are right!

 

Seems a real shame to see this on the forum. It

 

John, I don't wish to get involved in an online dispute and I think it's a bit unfair of you to expect forum members to take sides in this. All I would say is that I bought your book ' Seatrout Nights ' and I would put it up there with the best of seatrout books. It's absolutely packed with information and knowledge of our sport . Maybe take a step back John . Life's too short for this kind of thing. I'm sure thousands of anglers who have read your book would agree that your book was a very significant addition to seatrout literature.

 

Here’s a hypothetical scenario for you all:

Forum member X makes the following post: “Member Y is a thief”

Assuming that you are not Member Y (God forbid), how do you react?

Do you demand that Forum Member Y must prove that he is not a thief?

Or do you demand that Forum Member X must prove that Member Y is a thief?

Or do you do nothing?

After all, there are two sides to every story.

 

John, what sort of resolution are you expecting here? If it’s pitchforks and a mob then I can save you the time, it’s not going to happen.

That reminds me, I must order some more of your excellent needle tubes

 

As T7 said, if I wanted needle tubes, I'd have no hesitation in buying from you.

 

Don't retailers keep records of sales? Do purchasers receive receipts & content of shipment confirmation?

 

Weatherman that’s not the worst idea because even if he doesn’t have the exact receipt he would have a record of ever having sold dodgy trebles or even kits containing them
It could possibly clear this whole mess up especially if we knew the year that this all happened
thanks billy

 

Hear hear

 

Several members have stated that they have no reason to disbelieve Mr Littler. In other words, they have no reason to believe me. So, no, that is not satisfactory. The whole reason for my joining this forum was to convince you all to disbelieve what Mr Littler has accused me of.

Forum member Weatherman has asked:

“Don't retailers keep records of sales? Do purchasers receive receipts & content of shipment confirmation?”

The answer is Yes and Yes (within a reasonable time frame).

billy67 has added, most reasonably, that reproduction of order receipts and confirmations would be useful.

Below is a link to my online shop page which lists the details and options for buying packs of needle tubes:

https://www.graysofkilsyth.com/flyshop/product/needle-tubes/

Except for price changes, the specifications and options for this product, as for most of my products, have not changed materially over the years.

I updated the software used for my online shop in 2016. Consequently, I have no record of sales before then. I believe that Mr Littler ordered his needle tubes no later than 2016. Since he stated that he also bought a needle tube vice, the likely date of at least one of his orders would have been no later than 2013, as I did not sell that particular vice after 2013. However, I do know that, at some time between 2008 (when I introduced needle tubes) and 2016, Mr Littler placed a few orders for packs of needle tubes. I cannot remember precisely how many. I also supplied him with a number of complimentary needle tubes. Again I cannot remember precisely how many. Below is a screenshot of the kind of order confirmation he would have received.

He would also have received a separate email from Worldpay, the processing bank, confirming that his payment had been successful. He would also have received a further personal email from me telling him when I would post his order. I, the seller, would receive similar confirmations of both order (as below) and payment. Messages from before 2016 would look different, owing to the different software used, but the content would be essentially the same. I am hoping that Mr Littler will have kept those email messages and will be able to present them here.

What a customer will never receive, and therefore can have no evidence of, is confirmation of an order for items that I do not sell. Items I have never sold would include packets of treble hooks and needle tube kits containing treble hooks.

Now, although I do not have order confirmations before 2016. I do have proof of those products which I sold (and those which I didn’t sell) online from the opening of my online shop in 2001 to the present day.

There is a website called the Wayback Machine. This is an internet archive of thousands of website pages as they appeared at various stages in their history. It includes 357 snapshots of my website over the years.

• Search Google for Wayback Machine
• Click on the Google link
• This will take you to the home page, where you can insert the web address of any website.
• You will see the page shown above
• Type in https://www.graysofkilsyth.com/ as shown in the screenshot above
• Click Browse History

This will take you to a page like this:

Click on a year and then on a blue circled date. This will lead you to the version of my website at that date, showing the products I sold over the years. For example 17th May 2012

Most of the pages of my site should be accessible from the links on the sampled page. If you click on the blue arrows at the top right of the screen, you can spend many happy hours viewing my site from 2001 to the present day.

Nowhere in those 20 years of pages will you find packets of treble hooks or needle tube kits containing treble hooks.


To remind you all of what Mr Littler wrote in various posts … all of it untrue:

“John Grey once sent me some small trebles many many years ago and I lost a salmon while fishing with one at Wetheral. They were absolute junk which he later confessed to me that he got from the Far East.”

“It made me feel physically sick. John Gray's response was bloody pathetic. I didn't expect anything from him materialistic but I didn't think a more sincere apology would not gave gone amiss. The fish after all, was too easily lost on completely inferior hooks that he supplied. All so that he could make an extra ten bob per packet on them”

“I bought the needle tubes in kit form ….. The hook in question came with the salmon size needles and I will repeat what I received for the purpose of clarity. There were various lengths of needle tube, junction tube, some treble hooks and a clear plastic box. I still have the empty box.”

To any member who is not prepared to examine the evidence I have presented here in my defence, please refrain from posting any more dismissive comments or telling me you have heard enough!

 

I think for the sanity of the forum that you just stop now John. I’m afraid you haven’t proven it’s untrue and also you haven’t proven that it has substantially caused serious harm to you or your business. (On the contrary you’ve had some seriously effective, targeted and free advertising). Therefore the thread title ‘unlawful’ is incorrect and we’re simply dealing with one individual’s view/review of a product. The only harm that is being done now is by you to yourself and frankly I don’t think any forum members did or do care about this matter. I’d encourage other members to refrain from commenting further to save us this agony and let the forum administrators deal with anything they consider improper.

 

I don't contribute very often on this forum but I do enjoy reading what others are doing. But this is boring. Sort it out between you on the phone or in person please

 

May I thank those forum members who recognise where the truth lies in this unpleasant episode. Members’ kind comments are particularly appreciated.

 

Reading some of the replies I'm wondering where the friendly sea troot forum has gone

Are only certain members allowed to defend themselves and voice their opinion? Have we got a list showing members in order of value, most valuable being numero uno, a kind of elitist top tier membership.😉 Pretty sure we don't want to go down that route.

If what someone writes bores anyone, they don't need to read it, scroll on by, no hassle. I do agree however that this dispute doesn't do anything for the forum, that could quite easily have been sorted though if both parties had agreed to disagree and delete all the offending posts, doesn't look like that will happen. Might not have been the perfect outcome but maybe the best that could be achieved.

Also if we had an active admin on this forum it might've been dealt with but it looks like the admin are either posted missing or sleeping.

 

It’s getting tedious now, I’m 60 now but can you remember that old nursery rhyme about sticks and stones?

 

John Gray I for one would like for you to become a regular contributor as I believe that you have a lot of experience that we could all learn from
Please don’t let this experience take away from what is usually a very friendly place to be
From what I know about you you are a wealth of knowledge and although I can’t fish anymore I still think I would like to hear more from you and I’m sure that plenty other members feel the same
I wish you all the luck in the world with your products in the future and I hope that this whole sorry affair hasn’t done you any lasting damage
All the best thanks billy

 

I haven't been on for a couple of weeks have I missed something 🤷‍♂️😜

 

Nothing interesting

 

Correction to Information Posted Earlier by Me

Dear Forum Members,

Having done some frantic historical research (on very old hard drives) I was horrified at what I discovered. Consequently, I feel obliged to revise one or two of my earlier statements.

I will explain fully later this evening. This may interest one or two of you.